Immigration lawyer Danicole Ramos rides a wave off Laniakea Beach on O‘ahu’s North Shore. Photo courtesy of Valentin Feltrin

Riding 2- to 3-foot waves on Oʻahu’s North Shore this spring, Danicole Ramos was happy to be back in the surf after years spent studying and collecting degrees in Seattle and Washington, D.C.  

Ramos, 31, who grew up in Waialua, had rushed to Hale‘iwa Ali‘i Beach Park after work on March 13, and was hoping to catch a few more waves as a sunset painted the skies brilliant shades of purple. Straddling his surfboard, he focused on an incoming swell when another surfer paddled over.  

“He says to me, ‘I saw on social media you’re an immigration lawyer.’ He gets real chatty and says, ‘maybe you can help my friend,’ then tells me this crazy story about a Purple Heart veteran who was shot and now they want to deport him.” 

“I was like, ‘What!?’ Why is he telling me this while I’m in the water? This is the weirdest referral I’ve ever gotten.” 

Just two years after earning a law degree from the William S. Richardson School of Law at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa, Ramos didn’t realize he was about to ride the biggest wave of his life. The case quickly attracted local, national and even international attention. 

The day after getting the referral, the newly minted lawyer and immigrant veterans advocate at the Refugee and Immigration Law Clinic in Honolulu contacted the veteran, Sae Joon Park. Although Park was born in South Korea, he had moved with his mother to the United States when he was seven and later, with a green card in hand, spent nearly a half-century in the country.  

Piece by piece, Ramos, who is also a captain in the Hawai‘i Air National Guard, began investigating how a decorated veteran could find himself persona non grata in America. 

Here are the facts that he collected: Park, a service member wounded in battle while serving in the U.S. infantry in Panama in 1989, is awarded a medal after being shot twice and nearly dying. Following treatment in the U.S., and suffering post-traumatic stress disorder, he self-medicates with street drugs and gets convicted in New York. He has to sacrifice his green card despite his exemplary service.  

After serving 2 1/2 years in prison, Park pulls his life together, gets clean, holds a job back in Hawai‘i and pays taxes for more than a decade. Finally, with the election of Donald J. Trump and his administration’s crackdown on undocumented residents, Park is told at his annual check-in with the local Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) office to self-deport back to South Korea or be forcibly removed, a prospect with an uncertain destination or timeline. 

Then the threat became immediate.  

“When we checked in at the ICE office, the officer was about to cuff him right there,” Ramos recalled. “I couldn’t believe it. The officer said, ‘Because of this new regime’ — he literally used that word — ‘you’re going to get deported.’”  

Ramos was stunned.   

“Everything about Park is American except on paper,” he says. 

“I’d been doing annual check-ins for 14 years,” Park recalled during a video interview from South Korea with Hawaii Business Magazine. “But when we went in June, the officer started reaching for his handcuffs. He said, ‘Oh, you’re getting removed. We’ve got to remove you.’” 

After appeals to the officer’s supervisor, they agreed on a compromise — they’d put an ankle bracelet on Park and give him three weeks to self-deport, according to their account.  

“Thank God Danicole was with me because without him I would have been detained that day,” Park says. “I always feel blessed and always feel like there are angels looking over me. I really do.”  

A spokesperson for the ICE office in Honolulu did not immediately respond to a request for comment. 

With the threat of forcible deportation looming and seeing no other recourse, Park carried through on his decision to self-deport back to Seoul. At an emotional farewell at Daniel K. Inouye International Airport in Honolulu on June 23, he says he feared he’d never see his mother and her sisters again, and would miss important events in the lives of his grown son and daughter.  

His only hope was for Ramos to convince an uncaring bureaucracy to consider his troubled past and weigh his subsequent years of being drug-free, holding a job and paying taxes, and his exemplary service to the country. 

For his part, Ramos, having nearly exhausted every legal recourse in cases that had already been adjudicated, started spreading the word about Park. He created an online petition, seeking signatures in hopes of reopening Park’s case to “bring him home.” 

So far, the site has garnered more than 8,700 signatures. Ramos hopes to convince the district attorney’s office in the Queens borough of New York, where Park was convicted, to revisit the case. If it could be changed to a misdemeanor, there’s a chance the deportation order could be removed. 

There’s no indication the Queens district attorney has any interest in re-examining the case, Ramos said.  

“It’s a long-shot,” he admits. 

A spokesperson for Queens County District Attorney Melinda Katz did not immediately respond to a request for comment. 

Purple Heart veteran Sae Joon Park with his mother in Honolulu at a family gathering. Photo courtesy of Sae Joon Park

TOLD HIS MOM HE’S ON VACATION 

Back in South Korea, the 55-year-old Park is trying to get reacquainted with distant relatives, many of whom he last saw 30 years ago. Although he can speak Korean, he struggles with the written language. And he’s troubled by a recurrence of PTSD, which was triggered by being forced to leave the land where he spent the last 48 years. 

“It’s been really tough,” he says of the transition to a country he doesn’t really know. “Especially the first three or four days, I guess it was like PTSD. I’ve been overwhelmed, so every morning I would cry nonstop for two or three hours, just weeping.”  

“I’ve been getting reacquainted with my relatives,” Park says. “They don’t really know my story. They just know I got deported. It kind of hurts.  

“Of course, I made my mistakes,” Park acknowledges. “I told them I was going through PTSD, self-medicated. Korea is a very, very anti-drug country.…When it comes to drugs, it’s very shameful. So I had a hard time at first trying to explain to them. But more and more, they’re understanding what I’m going through.” 

On the bright side, Park is able to spend time with his father, who lives in South Korea and recently turned 91. As for his mother back in Honolulu, Park says she suffers from dementia and doesn’t know that he likely won’t be coming back. 

“We’ve told her that I’m on vacation,” Park says, and then turns quiet. “I try to comfort her as best I can.”  

Sae Joon Park in military uniform after he returned to Los Angeles from basic training in the U.S. Army. Photo courtesy of Sae Joon Park

‘I FELT LIKE A LEGAL RESIDENT’ 

Park’s parents divorced when he was two, and at the age of seven, he was sent to the U.S. from South Korea to live with his mother. After a year in Miami, they moved to Los Angeles, where he grew up and went to high school. After graduating, he enlisted in the U.S. Army infantry.  

Asked why he never converted his green card to become a naturalized citizen, Park paused and reflected, as though trying to explain why a race car driver doesn’t conserve on gas. 

“The thing about that green card,” he says, is that “growing up all my life in the States, I felt like a legal resident. I never had any issue. I could travel. It never entered my mind that I had to hurry up and get citizenship. 

“And you have to understand,” he continues. “I was a teenager and had a lot of stuff on my mind. My mind’s not focused on trying to get citizenship. I felt like I was an American. Then after I got shot, it was like, oh, that’s an automatic citizenship.” 

After joining the military in 1989, Park was quickly sent to Panama where he was stationed. Three months after arriving, President George H.W. Bush ordered the invasion of Panama in “Operation Just Cause,” an effort “to protect the lives of Americans” living there and to capture General Manuel Noriega, who was later convicted on drug trafficking, racketeering and money laundering charges. 

Park was one of 20,000 U.S. soldiers involved in the fighting. Twenty-three U.S. soldiers were killed in combat, and another 325 wounded. 

Park recalls the day he was shot. “The second day while patrolling the housing area, I heard some gunfire in the backyard…I saw some enemies under a truck, and I started opening fire and hit some in the legs. And then I saw a couple more soldiers running across, so I turned to let my sergeant know. That’s when I got shot.  

“I was conscious through the whole ordeal,” Park recalls. “It felt like a little pin in my spine. I realized I was on the ground, and my leg was all twisted up. I realized, oh my god, I’m shot in the back, so I start reaching for my leg and I had no feeling, and I thought, ‘oh, I must be paralyzed.’ And then I started thinking, ‘oh no, I’m not just paralyzed, I’m actually dying right now.’”  

A medic pulled him out of danger and stabilized him so he could be medevacked to a military hospital in San Antonio, Texas.  

Park had been hit by two bullets, one from an AK-47 and another from an M-16, which “zigzagged, dodging all my vital organs, the lung, liver, heart,” he recalls. One bullet pierced the dog tag he wore around his neck and left an imprint on his chest where the bullet pushed the metal into his skin. “Doctors called it a miracle” that he survived, he said.  

While in a hospital bed in Texas, President Bush visited the wounded and thanked the soldiers for their valiant behavior. Later, Park says, a four-star general awarded him with a Purple Heart medal.  

While he was in the military, “no one ever asked me about my citizenship status,” Park notes. 

After being discharged, he says, the military’s benevolence ended.  

“From the day I was shot until around 2008, I didn’t receive a penny of any kind of benefits from the military,” Park says. “The VA would turn me down when they looked at my back. ‘Oh, the bullet hole isn’t big enough. You’re fine, you can bend over. Zero disability.’” 

And in 1989, the military did not treat his mental condition. Park said it wasn’t until 2007 or 2008 when the Veterans Administration reached out to him to evaluate his psychological wounds and finally treated his PTSD.  

When he pled guilty the following year to drug possession and later skipped bail, triggering another felony, Park’s excuse of PTSD fell on deaf ears.  He ended up serving more than two years at Mount McGregor Correctional Facility about 50 miles north of Albany, N.Y. “There were 600 inmates and one Asian — me,” Park says. 

Stripped of his temporary residence status conferred by his green card, he was suddenly rendered deportable. 

Although Park could have been sent home at any time, he was told his case wasn’t a high priority and he was allowed to carry on with his life as long as he kept clean and checked in with authorities every year, Ramos says.  

He returned to Hawai‘i where he had first arrived in 1995. At that time, Park says, “although I was struggling with my addiction, I got married and had two beautiful children.” Six years later, he  divorced and moved to New York, where his troubles later caught up with him.

Sae Joon Park in military fatigues during his service in Panama, 1989. Photo courtesy of Sae Joon Park

CITIZENSHIP AS RECRUITING BENEFIT 

Even as the current administration has set daily quotas to remove undocumented residents across the country, the U.S. military actively enlists noncitizens for the armed forces, offering streamlined avenues for veterans and active service members to become citizens. 

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security website for U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services states that service members, veterans and their families may be eligible for “certain immigration benefits in recognition of their important sacrifices.” The provisions “reduce or eliminate certain general requirements for naturalization, including the requirements for the applicant to have resided in and been physically present in the United States for a specific period of time before naturalizing.” 

The website touts its record: “Since 2002, we have naturalized more than 187,000 members of the U.S. military, both at home and abroad, involving citizens from more than 30 countries. From 2020-2024, more than 52,000 service members were naturalized, including a 34% increase in 2024 alone.” 

Indeed, offering a path to citizenship is a potent recruiting tool, says Ramos, who described another of his clients who signed up at a recruiting station in the Philippines but was later denied citizenship. Ramos said that once recruits have enlisted and begun their service, many have struggled to get necessary information or assistance to begin the path to citizenship. 

“Sae’s story is extreme and the worst of what happens, but it’s just a pattern of how the military treats veterans and service members. Citizenship is a draw for people, but it’s just not a priority once they’re in.” 

“I have eight to 10 clients who are veterans seeking naturalization,” Ramos adds. “Three or four have very serious situations – veterans of Desert Storm and other wars and got into trouble or were injured and now some are bedridden. They weren’t naturalized but they need naturalization before they can get help.” 

ONE BIG BREAK IN HAWAI‘I 

Park’s story is one of redemption denied in a country struggling to accept a nuanced approach to immigration. The Trump administration’s aggressive campaign to remove anyone without proper documents ignores the fact that businesses have long relied on the essential work of noncitizens — in farms, factories and even the military.

After his New York convictions and return to Hawai‘i, Park turned his life around. But he had one big break when an employer took a chance on him. 

Russell Wong, chief operating officer at Aloha Kia in Honolulu at the time, says probation officers often called to urge local employers to give jobs to ex-felons so they could gain an income and live at home rather than at half-way houses. The officers said the prospective employees were regularly drug tested and had periodic check-ins to make sure they didn’t relapse.  

“They just needed a shot to get re-integrated back into society,” Wong recalls of the encounter more than a decade ago. One of the people on the list was Sae Joon Park. 

“So I met with Sae — he’s a Purple Heart veteran and everything. It made sense from what I knew about him. In an interview, he talked about his life and showed integrity. I wanted to give him a chance. I didn’t think it was a big risk.” 

But it wasn’t as simple as making a job offer. Auto dealership salespeople need to be licensed, unless the board waived the requirement. Park did not have a license. 

Wong asked them to make an exception in Park’s case. “I wrote a letter saying I would stand by him and take responsibility for him. My impression was that he wanted redemption. He wanted to be a better person, and he was sincere. It was enough to convince me he was a risk worth taking.”  

The board consented, and Park was hired, staying with the company for about a decade. 

“I’d like to think I helped him out,” recalls Wong, who is now regional vice president for Aloha Kia. “He did a lot to bring sales for the company, too.”

The two haven’t talked in years. But during an interview from South Korea, Park’s eyes teared up as he recalled the man who had helped him when no one else would. 

“When I got released, I couldn’t get a job,” Park recalls. “But Russell Wong wrote this wonderful letter saying he knew about my priors and was still willing to help me rebuild my life…. I really do owe him a lot. 

“That motivated me to be a good father and do the right things and build a great life in Hawaiʻi — a life I’m so proud of.”  

NO COUNTRY FOR IMMIGRANTS 

The timing of Park’s latest annual check-in with ICE may have worked against him.  

In late May, after the administration’s “border czar” Tom Homan announced his teams had arrested some 200,000 people in the first four months of the Trump term, some media reports noted that was a slower pace than under former President Joe Biden.  

Not to be outdone, White House aide Stephen Miller, the architect of Trump’s immigration policy, upped the ante, directing ICE to triple its arrest quotas, to 3,000 per day. Officers ramped up their raids, broadening arrests far beyond the original stated target population of dangerous criminals. 

Then, in a brief about-face after widespread protests over ICE roundups in the Los Angeles area, Trump acknowledged in early July that he was considering exceptions to the hardline crackdown to help farm and restaurant businesses keep loyal, yet undocumented, workers.  

“We’re going to have a system of signing them up so they don’t have to go,” Trump told reporters during a trip to Florida. “They can be here legally, they can pay taxes and everything.” 

But in a White House briefing later, spokeswoman Karoline Leavitt said there had been no final decision on the idea. While the president’s comments raised hopes among some in the business community who wanted to keep access to cheap labor, they sowed more confusion. 

Shortly after Trump’s remarks, ICE officials resumed roundups in fields in California, Hawaiʻi and elsewhere. And in early July, U.S. Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins declared that farm workers would not receive “amnesty,” adding the administration wanted to rely on an entirely American workforce. 

Miller’s hard line had prevailed. 

Even so, the regimented crackdown, with a stated goal of removing millions of undocumented immigrants, has unnerved even some of Trump’s ardent MAGA base as news reports showed heavily armed and masked ICE agents forcibly rounding up men and women at their workplaces, on the streets and in their homes.    

“Being in the military, it’s very conservative,” said Ramos. “After the news spread about Mr. Park’s case, I had veterans tell me, ‘I voted for Trump, but this is crazy. I never thought it would come to this.’ His story, regardless of party lines, is really disturbing. Hopefully it will educate people about how we treat veterans in this country.” 

Indeed, Park’s case has struck a nerve across the political spectrum.  

On the petition website, comments range from pity, to sadness, to outrage. 

A 23-year Army and combat veteran wrote: “This is absolutely atrocious. He’s a decorated soldier, suffered wounds in combat, and the failed mental health system in the military at the time [led] him down a troubled path. He needs to be allowed back into the country that he served, and needs to be treated properly at the VA and with military resources for the psychological and physical wounds he sustained in combat. We help our veterans in this country, we don’t deport them!”  

Another comment, from a person identified only as Ron, said, “Mr. Sae Joon Park bled for this country.…Yes, he made mistakes — over 15 years ago. But we don’t erase a veteran’s sacrifice over a decades-old rap sheet — we weigh the whole man. Queens County and the U.S. owe him more than a cold shoulder. They owe him citizenship.” 

And a video comment showed a woman named Sara raising a crisp salute to Mr. Park, saying he had done more for the country “than most Americans would ever, could ever, and would want to ever, and you still believe in being a veteran, a supporter, and I praise you. Hats off to you, sir. Please, come home. You deserve it.” 

Ramos’s petition asks the Queens district attorney — who was not in office when Park’s case came to trial — to drop the convictions for drug possession and bail jumping. “These convictions, as they stand, hinder his immigration attorneys from making the necessary motions in immigration court to cancel his deportation case and allow him to return to the United States.  

“Past mistakes should not overshadow Mr. Park’s life of dedicated service,” the petition continues. “Compassion and justice demand that we reconsider his situation. Our national ethos and the values Mr. Park defended require us to act justly and with humanity.”  

Danicole Ramos, immigrant veterans advocate at the Refugee and Immigration Law Clinic at the University of Hawaii-Mānoa law school. Photo courtesy of Danicole Ramos

THEY DON’T TEACH THIS IN LAW SCHOOL 

Amid the swirl of legal and media demands on his time, Ramos sometimes pauses to consider how quickly his life has changed since that day in March while surfing on O‘ahu’s North Shore.   

“This case has affected me a lot,” he admits. “I only passed the bar exam last year. And they don’t teach any of this in law school — about media and being in the public eye,” he said after appearing with Park in an interview on CNN. 

But his passion for social justice, immigration and helping veterans runs deep. After finishing a business degree at Seattle University, he turned his attention to public policy while earning an M.P.A. degree at American University in the nation’s capital. While there, he worked as an administrative coordinator for United We Dream, America’s largest immigrant, youth-led network. 

He said he remembers paying bail money out of his own pocket to get some of the kids out of jail so they could work together on their cases. That’s when he decided he wanted to become an immigration lawyer, and he returned to Hawaiʻi to apply to law school. 

But before enrolling at UH, he worked as a policy analyst and lobbyist for Elemental Impact, a nonprofit investor in climate technologies. 

One of Ramos’s former colleagues at Elemental and a surfing buddy, Benny Kim, said of Ramos: “He’s an empathetic and kind person and was always dedicated to helping people around him.”  

“When we worked on climate issues together, he was always looking at a bigger picture, talking about immigration and refugee rights,” added Kim, who now works in New York for another organization. 

During law school, Ramos served as a summer law clerk and extern for The Legal Clinic and represented an asylum seeker in Immigration Court. He was also a legal extern for Honolulu City Councilmember Matt Weyer and as a legislative aide to State Representative Sean Quinlan. 

“I learned a lot about how Bishop Street worked,” he said, referring to the Honolulu street where many law firms and lobbyists are located. 

Now he’s able to tap some of the skills of persuasion that he picked up from the experts who tutored him. 

As an attorney at the Refugee and Immigration Law Clinic, attached to the UH law school, Ramos represents a range of clients seeking help applying for green cards, or veterans seeking naturalization or health benefits. 

“It’s like a firm,” Ramos said of the clinic, which employs four attorneys and also gives law school students exposure to actual cases.   

The clinic’s website emphasizes the important role of foreign-born residents in Hawai‘i’s labor force, and notes the clinic was established “to ensure that Hawai‘i’s most vulnerable immigrants would have access to legal services.”  

“Over a third of healthcare support workers are immigrants, as are nearly two-fifths of the state’s farmers, fishers, and foresters,” according to the website. “Immigrants own over a quarter of businesses in Hawai‘i. As neighbors, business owners, taxpayers, and workers, immigrants are an integral part of Hawai‘i’s diverse and thriving communities.” 

‘I EARNED THAT LIFE’ 

Back in South Korea, Park reminisces about once being part of Hawai‘i’s immigrant community and making a contribution.   

“I earned that life,” he says. “I got to the point where I said, oh my god, I have a great life. I can live out the rest of my days just like this and be so happy. Both of my children turned out great…I really felt I earned all of that. I did a great job. I was proud of myself for the first time.” 

To cheer himself up, he takes comfort by reading through thousands of notes from supporters and shields himself from the inevitable few who say he deserves what he got. 

“I don’t have to defend myself. There are so many people speaking out for me, defending me. When I see that, I just break down and cry because I’m so grateful.” 

One bright spot keeps Park going. Even though he has bouts of PTSD, as a veteran, he said he can go to a U.S. military base in South Korea to see a doctor for help with his disorder. He hasn’t set up an appointment yet, but hopes they’ll let him in. 

“I was very proud of myself,” Park recalls of being a decorated U.S. soldier. “I have always been proud of my Purple Heart,” he adds, suddenly trembling with emotion. “It’s on my license plate, ‘combat wounded’ with a Purple Heart…I could even brag about what I did for this country. And yes, it’s been a big part of my life. I wouldn’t change anything. That’s a big part of who I am today.  

“A hundred percent, I feel like an American.”  

Jane Marshall Goodsill has spent thousands of hours listening to people’s stories, both as a licensed professional counselor and a volunteer oral historian. When she set out to collect people’s recollections of her father, Marshall Goodsill, a founder of the local law firm Goodsill Anderson Quinn & Stifel, what she gathered was so much more.

The result is an oral history book, “Voices of Hawai‘i: Life Stories from the Generation that Shaped the Aloha State.” The personal recollections take readers inside events that transformed the Islands from the Big Five era dominated by haole business leaders and politicians into the modern era. The book is published by Watermark Publishing, a sister company of Hawaii Business Magazine.

The recollections of almost 100 local people are included in the book. Here are excerpts:

Former OHA and Kamehameha Schools trustee Oswald Stender on his family’s 999-year lease:

Oswald Stender | Photo courtesy of Jane Marshall Goodsill

We lived off the land in the Native Hawaiian way. Grandfather John, who died when I was 14 or 15, leased the Hau‘ula property we lived on from the Territory of Hawai‘i. When I was at the university, my sister was living on the property. She wanted to build a house and she needed to find out who owned the land. We never knew who owned it; we just lived there. I researched the property and found that it was owned by the state and we had a lease on it. My grandfather had signed the lease in 1922 and it was for 999 years.

Author Goodsill: I’ve never heard of a lease that long. Was that common?
Stender: It was common in those days. There are a few left and we are one of them.

Alexander & Baldwin President and CEO Chris Benjamin, on closing the last sugar plantation in Hawai‘i, the Hawaiian Commercial & Sugar Co. operation on Maui, in 2016:

Christopher Benjamin, CEO, Alexander & Baldwin. | Photo: David Croxford

I would never blame the anti-cane-burning people for shutting down HC&S. I would never blame any single group. Water opposition didn’t help us much either, but our demise was a result of many, many factors. It was very difficult for me to be the one to shut down the plantation – and the industry – because I had worked there, and I knew all the employees. On the other hand, I was the perfect person to make that decision because I wasn’t some bean counter from Honolulu coming in to say in a heartless way, “We’re going to shut this thing down.” I knew all those people. I cared about them tremendously and they knew that if I was making this decision, it was unavoidable. They knew how much I loved the plantation. It was a sad day.

Hawaiian Commercial & Sugar Co. | Photo: Aaron Yoshino

Henry Clark, former president and CEO of Castle & Cooke, on breaking the color barrier on the boards of Hawai‘i’s biggest companies during the Big Five era:

When Dr. Putnam decided to retire from the Honolulu Gas Co., he asked me if I wanted to be on the board and I said that would be fine, I appreciated it. The next thing I knew I was on the board of the gas company.

I noted that racially the board of the gas company was all haole. When I asked how come, they said that was the way it has always been and that’s the way it probably would be for a long time. I said, “That doesn’t make sense at all. Look at our stockholders. At least half of them are of Oriental extraction, maybe more than that. Look at your employees, more than half of them are of Oriental extraction. Why don’t you have someone of Oriental extraction on the board?” They said, “All right, why don’t you look into it?”

So I did and found there were two very fine candidates, and I brought them to the board and the board said fine. One of them was a Japanese man (George Fukunaga of Servco Pacific) who ran his own successful business. The other was a Chinese man named Zane, who was involved with Liberty Bank. By bringing them on the board it broke the barriers and all the other companies began to do the same thing.

Attorney David Fairbanks on civility in the practice of law:

The law hasn’t changed much but the practice has changed considerably. It is less civil. There is more competition for work. A lawyer is supposed to solve problems, not make things worse. You hear the young lawyers talking about “my case.” It isn’t their case; it’s the client’s case. You do what is right for your clients. I don’t think too many young lawyers today look at it that way; there is a lot of self-aggrandizement.

There is more of what I would call “sharp practice,” which you didn’t have in Hawai‘i back then because this was a small place. If you treated someone shabbily, the next time you worked with them you’d get it back, doubly. Now that code of civility doesn’t seem to matter so much, except among the older lawyers.

There seems to be more aggressiveness and less civility, which is not good. I think that the advent of computers, online resources and e-mails also contributed to that. You see stuff in e-mails that is scathing and acrimonious – almost personal attacks. But people can get away with it because they aren’t speaking face-to-face. Many lawyers have lost the give-and-take of talking across the table. In my day there would be adversaries who’d say, “Come over and look at my file.” You’d reply, “Come over and look at my file. Here’s what I’ve got.” And quite often you could resolve the case.

Former First Hawaiian Bank CEO Walter Dods, on interlocking boards of directors:

Walter Dods | Photo: Rae Huo

There was example after example of interlocking directorates. Here’s a typical conversation at a board meeting. The president of the bank says, “I would like to build a new headquarters on Bishop Street.” The CEO of another firm says, “I’ll go along with it if you buy the safes and the insurance from us.” The other CEO says, “I’ll go along with it, but we have to have this and this and this.” It’s right in the minutes! Everybody was in each other’s pockets. Several companies owned Matson Navigation together at that point. They could decide what the shipping rates were going to be and everything else.

When Bert Kobayashi became attorney general of Hawai‘i (in 1962), the business community was frightened to death. Bert met privately with the CEOs of the Big Five and the other large companies, and basically said, “Look, I’m giving you six months (or some amount of time) to get rid of all these interlocking directorates. If you do that, you’ll never hear from me again. There will be no lawsuits, no front-page newspaper articles. I’m not going to attack you. Just clean it all up.” And they did. The way he did it was admirable. Everybody expected it to be the opposite, with front-page exposés, because here was a chance to get back. After 50 years of being “hands” on the plantations they had the power to change things and it could have gotten nasty.

Walter Dods on Jack Burns and Lowell Dillingham:

Word in the downtown business community about (new Hawai‘i governor) Jack Burns was, “He’s a Communist. He’s going to wipe out society!” Burns, knowing the business community was concerned about him and the ILWU (International Longshore and Warehouse Union), asked to meet Lowell Dillingham, who was the CEO of Dillingham Corp. He was given the runaround. They wouldn’t schedule a meeting. So he drove down there and asked Lowell’s secretary, Anita Rodiek, to meet with him. She said, “Well, he’s tied up in meetings.” He said, “That’s fine. I’ll just wait until his meetings are over.” Finally, they realized he wasn’t going to leave. Eventually he and Lowell met and started talking. Who knows what they said, but that was the beginning of an incredible bond and friendship. Burns talked him into meeting with (ILWU VP) Jack Hall, and Lowell Dillingham turned a very much struggling Community Chest into what is today’s Aloha United Way.

Former First Hawaiian Bank executive Philip Ching, on breaking the color barrier at the Pacific Club:

One day Henry Clark and Frank Damon came to me in my office at First Hawaiian Bank. They said, “Philip, you know about Masaji Marumoto getting turned down for membership at the Pacific Club, right?” “Of course, it was in the newspapers.” “Well, we want you to put in an application for membership.” “You’ve got to be crazy. If I made an application and the word got out, my name would be mud in the entire Asian community. ‘What! The pake thinks he’s too smart, he wants to go join the haoles?’ I’d be a laughingstock.”

But one of my friends said, “It is time, and someone has got to do it.” I said, “But why me? I don’t care about being a member there.” I was told it was for the principle of the thing, breaking racial segregation, so I gave in and submitted an application. They had some closed meetings where the discussions were quite heated. But Henry Clark led the charge; he was a very persuasive guy. So in 1968 Asa Akinaka and I were voted in as members and that changed things forever.

Raymond Tam on the Moanalua land deal between Sam Damon and Clarence T.C. Ching:

Clarence with Senator Hiram Fong and Governor John Burns | Photo Courtesy of Clarence T.C. Ching Foundation

During World War II everything was rationed and Hawai‘i was under martial law. You couldn’t buy all the gasoline you wanted; you were given a coupon and you could buy ten gallons per month or some figure like that. You couldn’t buy all the sugar, butter, rice, or all the liquor that you wanted. Sam Damon, head of the Damon Estate, loved his booze, so my uncle Clarence made sure he got all the whiskey he wanted by using everybody else’s ration coupons. They became the very best of friends.

World War II ended in 1945 and rationing ended in 1947. Uncle Clarence was going to San Francisco, and it just so happened that Sam Damon was going to San Francisco. They met at the airport. In those days they didn’t have reserved seating, so Clarence and Sam Damon sat together and enjoyed the trip. On the plane over the Pacific, Sam Damon said, “Clarence, you want to buy the ahupua‘a of Moanalua?” My uncle said, “Sure. How much?” And Sam Damon said, “$8 million.” Now in those days 8 million sounded like eight trillion zillion dollars. My uncle laughed and said, “I don’t even have eight thousand! I cannot pay you.” And Sam Damon said, “Clarence, I trust you. As you develop, you will pay me.” And on a handshake, high over the Pacific, with no lawyers involved, no CPAs or real estate agents, they made one of the biggest private land deals in Hawai‘i.

Former Kaneohe Ranch CEO Mitch D’Olier on the land trust’s conversion of leased home lots:

There was very little fee simple land available to single-family homeowners in Hawai‘i. One goal of the Hawai‘i Democratic Revolution of 1954 was to change that. There was resentment toward big landowners, bad feelings on all sides, and fights about the prices. It went back to the hard feelings about the way workers had been treated on the plantations for so many years. Japanese Americans largely led the Democratic Revolution, and they wanted to own their own land; part of being a first-class citizen is owning your own land.

There was a legal question as to whether Kaneohe Ranch and other landowners could sell huge numbers of parcels of land to lessees and pay tax at capital gains rates. There was a provision in the tax laws to allow farmers to subdivide their fields and sell them off and get 90% capital gains. This ruling was to encourage urbanization of rural properties. There were some rules: You couldn’t build the houses, you couldn’t build the roads but if all you did was subdivide and sell, you could get favorable capital gains tax treatment. Kaneohe Ranch and a lot of the other owners didn’t build the roads and didn’t build the houses; they had third parties do that. A ruling from the Internal Revenue Service allowed a for-profit for the first time to sell huge amounts of property and get a favorable capital gains rate. This freed a lot of land for fee simple purchase by Hawai‘i’s citizens. It was a socially significant event.

Former Ala Moana Center GM Alice Flanders Guild, on the mall’s first tenants upon opening in 1959:

Morley Theaker was the GM of Sears, which was downtown between Young and Beretania Streets. There were all these satellite stores around it, such as Slipper House and Crack Seed Center. Lowell Dillingham approached Morley asking Sears to be the anchor tenant for Ala Moana. Sears was the logical choice because they were freestanding. At first, Morley didn’t want to move, and then he said, “Well, if I move Sears, you have to take all the little stores that surround Sears, because they will never survive if Sears moves!” He built that into the deal, and that is how all those small shops got into Ala Moana.

Retired business leader Stuart Ho on Chinn Ho’s financing of the Ilikai:

Chinn Ho | Photo Courtesy of the Honolulu Star Advertiser

For my father, building the Ilikai apartment and hotel complex was the biggest milestone of his career. When it opened its doors in 1964, it was the world’s largest condominium. It also quietly changed the way business was done in Hawai‘i, with respect to the relationship between haole bankers and non-haole businessmen, and the threat of mainland bankers eyeing Hawai‘i. Dad signed a fixed-cost contract with Hawaiian Dredging to build a one-million-square-foot building for $14 million. The round numbers make the math simple: build a building for $14 per square foot; sell it for $29 per square foot. That meant a two-bedroom, 1,000-square-foot apartment would have to sell for an average of $29,000.

Sales were moving at a good pace, thanks to Canadians with sandy feet, but it was not enough to cover any foreseeable budget shortfall. Dad flew to New York City to discuss his troubles with his younger brother, Philip, a stockbroker with J.R. Williston & Beane. Uncle Philip introduced Dad to Ed Palmer at Empire Trust, and Palmer pointed him to what one would have thought was a very unlikely character, Samuel Silverman. Silverman was a suave, kindly, middle-aged gentleman who worked out of a townhouse at 20 East 65th Street with the sometime assistance of a secretary.

Sam Silverman was more than he appeared. He was a mortgage broker but he also originated complex financing for the Columbia University treasurer’s office. Sam was a money machine for Columbia. Dad discussed the Ilikai situation with Sam. Normally, a reasonable cost overrun would be covered by an extension of credit, provided that sales were progressing satisfactorily. But Sam’s New York City-educated nose smelled rats, or so he told me twice in later years. One was that Hawaiian Dredging would probably like to see a foreclosure on the Ilikai project. The second was a realization that local banks were reluctant for mainland banks to encroach on their domain; they were not eager for New York lenders to discover Hawai‘i as a place to make money.

Dad brought our entire family to greet Sam when he arrived at the old John Rodgers Airport. Sam disembarked resplendent in a white Panama suit and white shoes. When Dad invited Sam to a large cocktail party, Sam asked who would be there. “Pretty much everyone in Honolulu’s commercial and banking community,” Dad replied. Sam asked if he could bring a guest, and Dad said of course. Sam called the head of real estate at First National of Boston, a guy named King Upton, and invited him to fly to Honolulu, all expenses paid. Upton asked what he had to do. Sam replied, “Do nothing; just drink all the mai tais you want.” Upton came.

The party went something like this: Dad circulated, introducing Sam as his New York financial advisor, and Sam introduced Upton as head of First National of Boston’s real estate lending. Rudy Peterson, head of Bank of Hawaii from 1961 to 1963, was Dad’s lender. He observed from afar and as usual didn’t miss a thing. Rudy Peterson was one of my idols. He is the only CEO of a big bank (Bank of America 1963-1968) ever to answer his own phone without a secretary giving the caller the third degree.
After that party, credit was extended by Bank of Hawaii to my dad for the Ilikai project and it was built to huge success.

Former Honolulu City Councilman and state government executive Gary Gill, on his family’s acquisition on Palehua, the mountain above Makakilo:

My grandfather Tom Gill was an architect in Honolulu. He pooled his resources with my grandmother, and they built a number of little duplex apartments on their half-acre, creating a boutique hotel. Grandma would pick up people on Boat Day at Honolulu Harbor in her Model A and drive them to the Gill Apartments on Seaside Avenue.

Ultimately, my generation sold that property, which meant we had a small pool of money with no idea what to do with it except that maybe we should put it into some other land. I asked a friend who was an attorney for the Campbell Estate if he had any ideas. He said, “Well, we’re selling a mountain.” I said, “We don’t have that kind of money!”

But as it worked out, the Trust for Public Lands had raised public money and Ed Olson, a large landowner on the Big Island, became involved. My family threw in everything that we had from the sale of the Waikīkī property and our hui bought 7,000 acres from the Campbell Estate. The Ed Olson Trust has just under one-half of the acreage on the east side of Palehua Road, and Gill Ewa Lands, LLC has the western portion of the property along Nanakuli Ridge.

With a once-in-three-lifetimes opportunity that barely came together and serendipitous timing, we leveraged half an acre of Waikīkī into 1,600 acres of agriculture and conservation land in Wai‘anae.

Peter Ehrman of Dean Witter/Allstate and the company’s kiosks inside Sears stores:

When I first started in the business, Sears had just acquired Dean Witter and Allstate Life Insurance Co. They thought it would be a great idea to have little kiosks in Sears stores manned by an Allstate person and a Dean Witter person. My assignment was manning a shift at a kiosk at either Sears Ala Moana or Sears Pearlridge. Some days I’d sit all day and not talk to a single person. Other days someone with no experience with investing whatsoever might walk by looking for guidance. At the end of the conversation, they might tell me they had $250,000 that they had just inherited and wanted to invest. They would say all this standing next to the car batteries and tires at the auto section in Sears!

Most of the people who came in knew nothing about investing so it was a lot less intimidating for them to talk to a live person at a Sears kiosk than to make an appointment with a stranger and go into a high-rise in downtown Honolulu for a meeting.

I have clients today that I met at that Sears kiosk in 1984 and 1985. I remember when they could invest $2,000 or $5,000 or $10,000 a year. Today I see them retired with their houses paid off, having no debt, with financial security and millions of dollars in their portfolios. It has been very satisfying to have been a part of their success!

Author Speaks: Jane Marshall Goodsill, author of “Voices of Hawaiʻi: Life Stories from the Generation that Shaped the Aloha State,” will speak at an online event on March 11 at noon.

She says she will discuss collection techniques, cooperative engagement of interviewees, creative ways of presenting material, use of photographs, archiving and legal issues.

The Zoom meeting is open to the public. The meeting ID is 916 4862 3292, password 786918.

The event is sponsored by UH Mānoaʻs Hamilton Library, the Departments of Political Science, History and Ethnic Studies, and the Center for Oral History.

What drew you to Hawai‘i after a lifetime and career in Canada and the eastern U.S.?

Nelson:  I’ve had the great privilege to teach at William S. Richardson School of Law several times over the last dozen years or so. I did my first sabbatical here teaching criminal procedure and an upper-level writing seminar. I was honored to be asked back to teach in the wonderful Ulu Lehua Scholars Program.

Those experiences were transformative, and I have always been greatly impressed with the students, alumni, staff and faculty with whom I had the pleasure of engaging. Also, as a Jamaican, I’ve always felt comfortable, welcomed and embraced here.

What is your leadership style?

Nelson:  I believe effective leaders are good listeners. I think humility is important, especially as no one person can know everything, and an inclusive leader needs to empower others to use their expertise in service of the larger enterprise and community. It’s really important to lift up the next generation of leaders.

Particularly now, good leadership calls for crisis management and tone setting. My hope is that this all comes together authentically in service of the law school and university.

What do you believe are your greatest responsibilities to the students, who will become tomorrow’s judges, prosecutors and lawyers?

Nelson:  During the pandemic, I am ever mindful of our students’ well-being, physical, psychological and emotional. I am concerned about self-care and holistic health generally.

I also want to remind students that they are our future leaders. Lawyers have always led us forward in so many aspects of society, and I want them to see themselves as empowered leaders of tomorrow. I want them to bring their whole selves into important conversations to make sure our profession becomes more diverse and inclusive and benefits from their backgrounds, experiences, cultures and perspectives, in addition to their legal acumen, experience and skills.

America’s justice system does not treat all people equally. What roles can lawyers and ordinary citizens play to change those inequalities?

Nelson: I think you have to recognize the role that law and lawyers play in safeguarding the democratic ideals to which we aspire. I think the best is yet to come in terms of reaching our highest democratic goals.

I think lawyers and those with excellent legal minds – our legal leaders of tomorrow – have a role to play in making sure we move forward, not backward, to achieve the highest aspirations of our democracy.

With respect to the citizenry, I think the engagement and activism of citizens have always transformed our society in meaningful ways. I think we are seeing this now throughout the country.

What experiences and people have shaped you the most and in what ways?

Nelson: I come from a family that greatly values education. Growing up with limited means in Jamaica instilled in my parents the transformative value of an education. My father in particular always emphasized the role of education in justice-seeking. There’s a telling reason slaves were often prohibited from learning to read or write. Access to literacy and to education is empowering.

I recognize the transformative potential of education. It’s analogous to a passport in that it can propel you forward to different places and spaces, and allow you access to people, places and things previously inaccessible. So when we talk about access, opportunity and equity, we have to talk about education in the same conversation.

What leadership roles should the Richardson School of Law play in Hawai‘i?

Nelson: In terms of national and Hawaiian discourse, I think concern for ensuring the rule of law is part of a widespread conversation. People recognize the Constitution and its amendments are critically important, that national and local legislation matters, and that how we engage in and talk about civil society is crucial to how we move forward and address crises. Lawyers have something to say and contribute to each of these areas.

Whether we think about the criminal legal system, environmental concerns and climate justice, voting rights, administrative law, immigration policy, privacy and technology, health law and policy, land rights or corporate governance, the law is interwoven through it all. Law matters near and far.

I think we’re living in an era where people understand that and, therefore, the work of lawyers and judges is foundational to how we think about our world, hopefully toward an improved future.

Is there a book, podcast or other medium you find engaging and useful?

One of my favorite books is “The Alchemist” by Paulo Coelho. I’m presently reading “The Inner Work of Racial Justice” by Rhonda Magee. I thought Trevor Noah’s “Born a Crime” was as insightful and poignant as it was witty. As for podcasts, I listen to “The Daily,” “How I Built This” and was addicted to “Serial” for a while. I need to revisit it.

Born and raised in Kalihi Valley, marketing guru Guy Kawasaki went from law school dropout to working for some of the biggest names in tech: Apple, Google and Wikipedia. He’s now the chief evangelist for Canva, a popular Sydney-based graphic design platform.

He is also a panelist at Hawaii Business Magazine’s Leadership Conference session on Purpose-Driven, Human-Centric Biz Tech. The 66-year-old father of four lives in Santa Cruz (close to his favorite surf break), has written more than a dozen books and sometimes gets mistaken for Jackie Chan.

Q: You got a degree in psychology from Stanford University, yet you wound up in tech. How did that happen?

Kawasaki: Psychology was the easiest major. My career ambition was to be an entrepreneur. I was entranced by Silicon Valley, and in the early ’70s, the dream company was Hewlett-Packard. They made cool products: printers, tech stuff. They were creating wealth.

I was interested in tech stuff, but I wasn’t a technical person. The tech industry was simply divided into two pieces: You either make the stuff or you sell the stuff. So since I couldn’t make the stuff, I had to sell the stuff.

To make my parents happy, I went to law school at UC Davis and I hated it. So I quit after 10 days. I went to UCLA to get an MBA, which is what I was really interested in. I liked business, not law. When I was at UCLA, it was a four-day-a-week program, so I had a three-day weekend every week and I started working for a jewelry manufacturer called Nova Stylings in downtown LA. After I graduated, I went into the jewelry business for about five years, then I went into a software company called EduWare Services, then Apple.

You were at Apple twice in your career. What was your first job?

I started as a software evangelist: My job was to convince hardware and software companies to buy into the Macintosh dream and create Macintosh products. I did that for about four years, then left to start a company. I came back to Apple and became chief evangelist. That was in 1995, when Apple was supposed to die. My job was to preserve the Macintosh community and cult.

Everything you’ve heard, read or seen about Steve Jobs is true. He was very difficult to work for – extremely demanding. But he drove me to do the best work of my career and I would not be where I am were it not for Steve Jobs. I consider it an honor to have worked for him.

One day he shows up at my desk with somebody and he asked me what I thought of a certain company. I told him the company was mediocre with crappy products, and then he says, “I want you to meet the CEO of that company.” That’s what it was like.

So what does an evangelist do?

Evangelism comes from a Greek word that means “bringing the good news.” I brought the good news of Macintosh, making people more creative and productive. I’m the chief evangelist of Canva, and I’m bringing the good news of Canva, which makes everybody a better communicator by helping them design beautiful graphics. An evangelist brings the good news as opposed to making a sale.

What drew you to Canva?

I became a user because the person who helps me with social media was a user. She used Canva for my Twitter graphics and the company reached out to me.

Canva has democratized graphics and design. This means that anybody can create beautiful graphics. You don’t have to be trained as a graphics designer. You don’t have to buy Photoshop or Illustrator. You don’t have to spend weeks learning these products. You don’t have to seek an independent designer or convince a design department to do something for you. That’s kind of the antithesis of Canva. You can make your own stuff.

You joined Twitter (@guykawasaki) in 2007, a year after the social media platform was founded. Now you have 1.4 million followers. What did you think of it then?

When I first saw Twitter, I thought it was just irrelevant jibberish of no value. In those days, if you went to the Twitter homepage, you’d see @lonelyboy15 saying the line at Starbucks is long. I don’t care who @lonleyboy15 is and I don’t care if the line at Starbucks in Austin, Texas, is long. But I started searching for mentions of my name and for competitors. I saw how much action there was about evangelism, marketing, my competitors, my company, venture capital, these kinds of topics. This was a way to find people who shared common interests.

In December, you launched your podcast, “Guy Kawasaki’s Remarkable People,” and featured some big names, including Martha Stewart, former White House chief of staff Leon Panetta, Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak and Jane Goodall. You’ve also interviewed Hawaiʻi Gov. David Ige and local chef Roy Yamaguchi. What made you jump into podcasting?

I have been blessed with so many relationships and connections with people. Literally remarkable people. If you look at my guest list, it’s up there with NPR’s. Even before the pandemic, I was tired of traveling and making speeches all over the world. So I looked at podcasts and thought: “Maybe I can start a new business where I don’t have to go all over the world all the time.”

The bulk of my energy is spent on the podcast these days. As I look back on my career, of all the books, speeches, jobs and work I’ve done, the podcast is my finest work. Yeah, no kidding.

The interview was edited for conciseness and continuity.

In Part I of this extended Talk Story, she talks about her personal journey as part of an immigrant family from South Korea striving for the American dream. In Part II, she talks about how Hawaiian Telcom’s investments in a local and trans-Pacific fiber-cable network will support Hawai‘i’s broadband and 5G needs.

PART 1

What prompted your family to move to America?

Shin: My mom emigrated with me and my brother from Korea in 1977 when I was around 5. My dad had died unexpectedly and left my mom with two young kids to raise.

She had two concerns. At the time, Korea wasn’t as progressive and modern as it is today. They didn’t have affordable public schools and many families would prioritize the education of their sons. My mom, herself, only had a middle school education. And a fatherless child would be somewhat ostracized.

My mother’s sister was living in Hawai‘i with her husband, who had a Department of Defense job. She sponsored us, so we moved to Hawai‘i. It was the whole American dream story for my mom. Her children could get an education, and if they worked hard, they could do well. In America, you are judged on who you are.

What was life like in Hawaiʻi?

Shin: We eventually got into public housing, and that’s where I grew up. We became naturalized citizens when I was in the sixth grade. My mom was diligent in that way.

I graduated from McKinley High School. I knew we didn’t have the means, so initially I wasn’t thinking I could go to college. But I remember applying on a whim to the University of La Verne in California because it was waiving application fees. I hadn’t told my mom. 

When I got the acceptance letter and the full financial aid package, I was so nervous to tell her. I remember her looking at me in the eye and saying: “If this is what you want, then I will support you.”

What did you learn about yourself at school?

Shin: I grew in so many ways. I learned about strength, leadership and extending beyond my comfort zone. I pushed myself a lot. I majored in journalism and wanted to be the next Connie Chung, upholding ideals around journalism. I also learned just how special Hawai‘i is, with its physical beauty and amazing people. Going to college was a great experience, but I knew I wanted to come home after.

What happened when you came back?

Shin: Hawai‘i is a small market. There were only three TV news departments when I got here. I got an entry level job. At first I was on the business side of the station in sales and data entry. Looking back, it was a blessing because I learned a lot. Eventually, I was in the right place at the right time with the right education. I landed a job in the newsroom, which was great.

I met my husband, and we started a family. After I had my first daughter, I gave myself a year to balance having a family and working in news. I realized, however, that my priorities had shifted with my daughter being born.

How did you take a new career path?

Shin: I joked around that ex-journalists either go into politics or public relations at the time. I looked at different opportunities and heard that Joan Bennet’s public relations firm allowed employees to set up home offices. As a new mom, that sounded fantastic.

I loved PR. There is so much strategic counsel and planning. You play an important role in understanding a company’s audience, workers and brand. (She ended up as senior VP at Bennet Group. She joined Hawaiian Telcom in 2013 as director of corporate communications.)

All of that experience really translated to my role as chief of staff and then president of Hawaiian Tel. The more time you spend on thinking through the impact and the strategy, the easier it is to bring people along.

There is a direct correlation between good leadership and good communication skills. I believe that if a person is a poor communicator, they will have trouble leading, regardless of their expertise.

PART 2

You are the first female CEO in the company’s history. How will your leadership style be different from your predecessors?

Shin: We talk a lot about EQ versus IQ. Empathy comes so naturally to women. Some view it as a strength while others view it as a weakness. Somebody might say that as a leader, you need to be firm and strong – anything else may be seen as weak.

I argue the opposite. We are changing as a society. Employees want to feel appreciated. They want to feel like they are part of a team. For a leader to show vulnerability means they are genuine and authentic. You should be who you are all of the time.

I’m never going to be John Komeiji. I need to stay true to who I am. Those traits have brought me success. I don’t need to change because I have a different title.

Your previous job at Hawaiian Telcom was chief of staff. Does it feel different now that you are at the helm?

Shin: It would be a problem if it didn’t feel different. I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility, both to Hawai‘i and our employees. Our company is the backbone that enables local people and businesses to connect with what matters most to them. But we also live in a global marketplace and cannot compete if we don’t provide that connectivity outside of the state.

In a lot of ways, we are the victims of our own success because if we do our jobs well nobody is really talking about us. But candidly, our 1,200 employees work hard every day to make sure things run smoothly.

We are a retail and a wholesale company. Our customers include the biggest cell phone providers. We are the backbone for all communication in Hawai‘i. That is not an understatement. I take my role as their leader very seriously.

How are you differentiating yourself in this competitive industry?

Shin: We have a fierce competitor in this space (Spectrum). We respect them, but what sets us apart is our employees. They are the heart and soul of this company. Our employees live here, work here and raise their families here. We have a vested interest in the success of the company because it equals the success of the state.

Another powerful differentiator is our fiber network. At one time, Cincinnati Bell and we were the only companies in the sector investing in this type of network. Now, more companies have followed suit, but they may have done too little too late. Some of them are trading at 40 cents a share now.

Hawaiian Telcom has invested more than half a billion dollars in a next-generation fiber network, including a submarine fiber-cable system in the Pacific. What ROI are you seeing?

Shin: The fiber network effectively future-proofs our network. The biggest cost in deploying a network is the construction, while the equipment that bookends the fiberglass lines is physically accessible and keeps improving. Updating the electronics enables the fiberglass to handle an exponentially higher amount of data. We made the decision to invest about 10 years ago, and it wasn’t an easy decision because it was a tremendous amount of capital. We could have paid dividends, but instead we invested in our future.

What role does Hawaiian Telcom play in 5G cellular service in Hawaiʻi?

Shin: On the wholesale side, we are the predominant provider to the wireless companies. There are other technologies in that 5G space that we are also looking into. It is certainly not ready for prime time, but at a minimum the wireless providers are our partners and we get involved in that way.

Currently, the 5G space requires fiber density, which we can provide. The fiber network keeps coming up as being critical to our long term success.

Two companies, Macquarie Infrastructure and Real Estate Assets and Brookfield Infrastructure Partners, are trying to buy Cincinnati Bell, which is the parent company of Hawaiian Telcom. Should this acquisition get regulatory clearance, what are the implications for operations in our state?

Shin: I can’t comment on any specific acquisition. Our hope, however, is that there is continued investment in our fiber network, which is so critical for Hawai‘i. It will not only help us remain competitive as a company, but help Hawai‘i when it comes to telehealth and distance learning and all of those applications that require bandwidth. Cincinnati Bell CEO Leigh Fox has described our company as that nice house in a really bad neighborhood. The bad neighborhood is the telecom sector. As a publicly traded company, we could be doing great things but our stock price would still drop partly because of the sector we are in. We have companies in this industry trading at sub 40 cents and are effectively getting ready to file for bankruptcy. They are dragging everyone down. But it now feels like the market is recognizing that we are undervalued. I think it is exciting and our employees are excited.

What aspects of Hawaiian Telcom’s integration with Cincinnati Bell worked well for Hawaiʻi?

Shin: The merger with Cincinnati Bell has gone really well. They made good on the promises and our employees have seen that.

One of the things that Cincinnati Bell agreed during that merger was to have two local board members on its board: Walter Dods and Meredith Ching, which is important to us because Hawai‘i’s voice is heard. They also maintained local management, which is good.

Workers tend to get jittery during corporate mergers. How are you quelling nerves to ensure everyone stays focused and productive?

Shin: I am hosting about 20 all-hands meetings throughout the state. These are all face-to-face meetings during which I answer any questions employees have. It is a big investment of time, but I think it is important because our workers are at the heart of our success. They are like family and we value what they do.

Former Hawaiian Telcom president John Komeiji encouraged a culture of innovation and let teams try new things. Is that still Hawaiian Telcom policy? Can you cite some successes from that policy?

Shin: One of our recent initiatives is the Entrepreneurs Sandbox in Kaka‘ako. We have a presence there and are extremely committed. You have Servco, Central Pacific Bank, etc., and you may wonder, what do we all hold in common? We are all companies that are invested in Hawai‘i. Why not get together in a common space and innovate and share ideas together?

We are also with UH on innovation. We want to work on projects and partner with their students and faculty. For us, it is the right thing to do because we live and work here and many of those young people are our future workforce.

This interview has been edited for clarity and conciseness.

Q: What’s the employment outlook for Hawai‘i in 2020?

Godsey: The picture will be a bit better for hotels and hospitality, according to the people I’ve been speaking with in the visitor industry. Interest rates will be pretty good. We will have a continued good year, which we shouldn’t be ecstatic about as our economic growth is not enough for us to raise the standard of living for everyone here. We should be striving for higher growth.   

Q: Any potential economic surprises?

Godsey: International geopolitics and what that could do for tourism. The other big potential surprise is financials and Wall Street, but typically in an election year you see an effort to have stable markets and stable interest rates. I’m much more concerned with what happens to the economy after the elections.

Q: There are several employment law changes on the horizon. What are employers’ biggest concerns?

Godsey: Definitely the federal Fair Labor Standards Act change in the level at which you have to pay people overtime. (Companies must pay overtime to workers earning less than $35,568 a year, up from $23,660.) There have been a lot of consultations around these changes.

The big story is the regulatory burden on employers only goes in one direction: up every year. This is increasing the cost and complexity of having employees. It is death by paper cuts.

We should be stepping back and thinking: Is it serving us to continue to place well-meaning, but ultimately not well-serving little changes and additions to rules and regulations on employers? It makes it hard for companies to grow and thrive.

Q: You have a bird’s-eye view on how companies are winning or losing the talent war. What is your advice?

Godsey: In my opinion, the most important thing companies can do is a daily or weekly practice of knowing your current people and their skills and needs and where they want to go next and then actively working with them to get there. The best thing you can do is working with the people you’ve got, and that’s not just talking about the business. You have to talk about their needs and focus on them.

It sounds so simple, but hardly anybody does it. Everybody spends so much time talking about the business but hardly about the people.

Q: The FFL investment company became a majority stakeholder in ProService in 2017. How is that working?

Godsey: FFL is an investor, but nothing changed in our core business. I used investors in 2005, in 2007 and then again in 2009 and 2013 and then with FFL. This is just a continuation of a long cycle of bringing in new investors.

What’s great about new investors is they are excited for the growth of the business and they bring that hunger. They are not sitting on past performance. New investors push us to be better and improve.

Working with new investors has pushed us to invest in a new platform and reinvent our service delivery. This is the type of change that gets facilitated when you have new capital and new ideas. They put new challenges on me and the team, which is always good.

Q: Please explain how this new platform is a big move for ProService.

Godsey: It bolsters our service delivery, which was already great. Our client satisfaction has been extremely high and we want to make it even better. They can do online portals, self-reporting, etc. It also allows our staff to be more consultative and less transactional, which is what everyone wants from HR.

What people value from HR is not just that the paperwork gets done. It’s not just the compliance element. What you really want is help on how to recruit, retain and engage employees. Being more consultative on strategic pay and benefits are where we are spending more time as a result of these changes.

Q: How is the new system different than the existing platform?

Godsey: It is a completely modern, cloud-based platform that is different than anything that exists in Hawai‘i. It is a completely integrated solution that is all built on a single database: handling applicant tracking, electronic onboarding, payroll, the HR management systems and electronic benefits enrollment. One source of truth. All of the other systems are old technology and old databases.

Q: There is always a risk in bold moves. Are you scared?

Godsey: Of course. Many people would ask: Why take a widely successful business like ProService and push it into an upgrade for an entire platform? We didn’t have to do it. There is no crisis we are responding to.

It is new and big and there is always an execution risk. But we have a great plan and great people. This is a moment where you work really hard and get to do great things. It ends up being a no-brainer. We could have made incremental adjustments, but it wasn’t going to get us to the point where our clients and the markets need to be. It’s a bigger and bolder move forward that will take HR to the next level in Hawai‘i.

This interview has been edited for clarity and conciseness.

Q: Where is A&B with its business simplification strategy?

Benjamin: We have achieved some goals, like being 100% Hawai‘i focused, which we achieved in 2018. The next goal is to be around 95% focused in commercial real estate. We’re not there yet; we still have Grace Pacific (a construction division) and a number of residential real estate projects that we intend to sell within a couple of years. We are now around 75% commercial.

As for Grace Pacific, we have engaged with prospective bidders and provided information to them. We are awaiting their interest and valuation of the company.

Q: You are 100% focused on Hawai‘i, yet some say diversification is good because it helps mitigate risk.

Benjamin: Yes, but a company should do what it knows best. For A&B, Hawai‘i is our home and we have been here for 150 years. We know the market and the community and the people. This allows us to create value in Hawai‘i much more than in other places on the Mainland.

Yes, the flip side is diversification can help during market downturns and make your earnings more stable. However, sometimes companies that seek too much diversification wind up diluting themselves. We are going to create value in the market and business we know best, then our investors can diversify their geographic risk by investing in a portfolio of companies.

Q: A&B considered converting to a real estate investment trust for many years before becoming a REIT IN 2017. What finally triggered the move?

Benjamin: We are entirely driven by the business we can do best and where we can create the best value for our stakeholders, which includes our employees, communities and shareholders. What we do best is commercial real estate. We spun Matson in 2012 and made the decision to be 100% Hawai‘i. In 2016, we decided to go almost exclusively into commercial real estate. Then we decided the best vehicle for us would be a REIT structure, because it is what most commercial real estate investors look for.

Q: The move was also intended to provide better access to capital and a bigger investor base. How is that strategy working so far?

Benjamin: The whole process is not done. It is a little like changing the offensive scheme on a football team. When you first change your approach, you don’t have all of the systems and components to be successful in that new strategy. So we are still developing that. But we have made significant gains. We brought in all of the right people to lead our commercial real estate business, and they are working well with our existing team. What we do next is to make sure we have all the right information systems and practices. We are making great progress in that.

The last piece is having the business focus that we are striving to achieve: 95% focused on commercial real estate. We are still a bit of a complicated story for investors, and our objective is to be more simplified. Once we have done that we will reap the rewards and be able to grow because we have better investor appreciation and access to more capital.

Q: With the City and County of Honolulu targeting illegal vacation rentals, do you think that will affect customer traffic at commercial properties in Kailua?

Benjamin: The impact on Kailua of that law is difficult to predict. It depends on the effectiveness of enforcement.

Our focus in all of our properties is the local markets. We have focused on grocery-anchored community shopping centers and industrial properties because we do not want to be a primarily tourist-oriented business. We all know Hawai‘i benefits from tourism, but we want to be focused on serving the local community. 

What I can say is that A&B is very focused on engaging with the community. So even if there is a decline in tourist traffic, we will help our tenants survive and thrive. Look at what we did with the old Macy’s store in Kailua. We converted that into a gathering place for the local community: from a fitness center to a vegetarian food store to two vibrant indoor/outdoor restaurants. Locals are flocking to that.

Q: Many businesses in Hawai‘i chase tourism dollars, but the strategy you describe goes against that current. Why?

Benjamin: Tourism tends to be a volatile portion of our economy. Clearly, the state has seen a tremendous uptick in tourism, but that can turn around. The local residents are here and if we can appeal to them and provide for their needs, it is a more stable business model.

Q: Real estate is cyclical, and the predictions are the market will cool off. How are you preparing?

Benjamin: The odds are there will be some slowdown over the next few years, and the best way we can prepare is by ensuring we have a strong balance sheet. We are taking steps that ensure our leverage is appropriate and that we are well-positioned for a downturn. All downturns are different, so we don’t know to what extent our centers will be impacted, but we have to be prepared regardless.

This interview has been edited for clarity and conciseness.

Q: What services does Hoku Capital provide?

Yeaman: I provide strategic advisory services to help my clients take their assets and businesses to the next level.

For instance, I have one client that has a real estate portfolio which has been managed a certain way for many years. After seeing all the assets, I put together ideas on how we might enhance the holdings as well as some redevelopment opportunities. I’m also bringing in fresh ideas on other aspects – even potentially the financing.

I have another client that has a manufacturing business in a different country. They are the majority owner and want to monetize that holding. So I help them think through it strategically and create a plan.

My clients are primarily families that I have known for many years and we trust each other.

Q: Do you have expansion plans for Hoku Capital?

Yeaman: I do see us down the road evolving into collaborating with other colleagues and doing acquisitions of local businesses or other opportunities. But my primary focus is not to grow my business. It might sound boring, but I’m focused on doing things I love with the people that I care about and trust.

I don’t need more work. I don’t plan to have any employees. My clients already have employees. The goal is to carry out the strategy through their people.

After my announcement, I got a lot of calls about projects. I told everybody I didn’t have any capacity to do anything else because I had previously arranged what I was going to do and who I was going to do it with.

Q: Did any of those offers tempt you?

Yeaman: It is easy to get tempted. But this is not about money. I have created enough wealth for me and my family. This is more about a lifestyle change. My focus is to take care of my health and to spend more time with my family, but still be engaged in business and the community.

Q: How are you leveraging your experience helping to run large companies like First Hawaiian Bank and Hawaiian Telcom?

Yeaman: I have 11 years in consulting and almost 20 years as a corporate executive, as well as the time I have spent on a lot of boards.

That experience translates into ideas and things that have worked for me or for others. That is the easy part. The thing that I need to always look out for is trends that are relevant today but not necessarily in the future. Technology is making everything evolve. How you leverage data and analytics is something that I try to keep abreast of.

Q: How does it feel to be on your own after having been in leadership positions at some of Hawai‘i’s biggest corporations?

Yeaman: The nice part is I have a more normal and flexible life. That was the driving reason for doing this.

That being said, I miss the people that I worked with over the years – most recently the folks at First Hawaiian Bank and Hawaiian Telcom. I stay in touch with a lot of them.

I like my new lifestyle because it provides me with more time with my family. I took my kids to get set up for college at the end of August. I’m hoping to watch the Michigan-Notre Dame football game in Ann Arbor before visiting my daughter in Boston.

Q: Your FHB departure was surprising because you were widely thought to be in line to be the next CEO after Bob Harrison.

Yeaman: It was surprising because it is not normal for people to make this type of a move. FHB is a prominent company and was paying me well.

My timing and Bob’s were not in sync, and it is OK. I didn’t want to force Bob’s timing. I care about Bob. I didn’t want to put him in a situation where he had to change his plans. Plus a corporate executive’s life is demanding and I did it for 20 years. Most people don’t ever have a chance to do it until they are in their 50s – I started at 32.

Q: You’re in your early 50s now. Is that too young to retire from the C-Suite?

Yeaman: I tell people I have retired from corporate executive life, but not from business. I became a CFO at 32 and worked in leadership roles for four large companies in Hawai‘i, and all of them went through something major.

Kamehameha Schools was right at the time when the trustees got removed and we had to establish a CEO-based management structure. When I went to Hawaiian Electric, Congress had passed the Sarbanes-Oxley Act and public companies needed to implement a whole slew of things. Then I went to Hawaiian Telcom, which was in bankruptcy, and took it public. Then when I went to First Hawaiian Bank, we took that public and then did five secondary offerings.

I’ve done a lot during that time, and I really don’t have anything to prove to anybody or to myself. I have been blessed beyond what I ever expected in my life in terms of family and work experience.

I probably didn’t spend as much time with the people that I care most about in my previous life, but it is better late than never.

This interview has been edited for clarity and conciseness.

Q: You recently doubled the size of your autism center. What’s next?

La‘a: Our focus is on developing the workers and techs in this field, because the need is so big and our program is comparatively small.

There is no single source that provides an exact number of how many Hawai‘i children are on the autism spectrum but it is hundreds. And remember, autism is not just a kid issue – it also affects adults. It’s a huge problem, that we don’t have enough board-certified behavior analysts or registered behavior techs.

The state and a whole range of stakeholders are working on this issue. We can make the diagnosis but then we need to also be able to offer the therapies to make a true difference.

Easterseals is training and getting people certified to be registered behavior technicians. We hope to one day be able to support people to become actual certified behavior analysts, which requires a master’s-level degree or sometimes a doctorate-level degree.

Q: How are you tackling this talent shortage?

La‘a: It’s hard to build this workforce for many reasons. The pay is not great for some. Training is not there for others. Can we provide a better care package for our staff? Culture is also important: Do people feel cared for? Good companies try to do all of these things. 

Q: Sometimes families don’t know that a child has a disability. How do you help them?

La‘a: At Easterseals we’re not doing the diagnosing – maybe one day we will have wraparound services – so instead we partner with hospitals and pediatricians in the state. The key is to be able to get kids the help that they need as soon as possible. The earlier the better.

Q: Applied behavioral analysis (ABA) is an immersive therapy for people with disabilities that can improve communication skills, increase attention and focus, and strengthen social skills. But it is costly and requires 30-40 hours a week of one-on-one therapy. If they can find a provider, how can families afford this?

La‘a: We know there’s a large number of children who don’t receive these services. We provide services through insurance because of a new law. (In 2015, the Legislature passed and Gov. David Ige signed “Luke’s Law,” which requires health insurance plans to provide ABA coverage for children with an autism diagnosis, up to age 14, and up to $25,000 annually.)

Also, the state Department of Education recently contracted providers to get these services in the public schools. So these two changes are helping.

Q: What about the uninsured?

La‘a: The state provides Med-QUEST to low-income residents. There are different funding sources, which I want the public to understand because it is important that these individuals get the diagnosis and therapies they need in a timely manner. 

Q: What are your most important long-term goals for Easterseals Hawaii?

La‘a: We want to be able to meet people where they’re at in life and provide whatever services they need. We want to support people to live the life they want in the community and not be isolated. We want them to have meaningful integration with jobs.

Q: You need community partnershipS for that level of integration. What is your pitch to companies to entice them to hire adults with disabilities?

La‘a: A diverse workforce is a stronger workforce. There is lower turnover, which is pretty significant. We also help by providing recruitment and placement as well as job matching. We do etiquette training and on-site job coaching. Our goal is to fade from the picture, but only when they are ready to keep up with the job requirements. Companies also benefit because there are tax incentives.

This interview has been edited for clarity and conciseness.

Q: Hawai‘i will need 65,000 more housing units by 2025, with at least one-third classified as affordable, according to the Department of Business, Economic Development and Tourism. What needs to happen for those units to be built?

Camp: Three things need to happen in my view.

First, permitting has to be fixed. Right now we expect permitting will take two years. But we should expect to get the permits for mass housing in three months.

The permitting system must be revamped so you can guarantee a permit turnaround within a certain time frame, which then gets embedded into the risk profile of a project.

If you have an acceptable duration for permitting, the risk is mitigated and costs come down.

Two, the community is talking on both sides. On the one hand, people are demanding affordable housing, and yet no one is doing anything about low-density areas, like Kailua. There are many protective homeowners who don’t want anybody else to live nearby.

Zoning in those areas should be modified. Instead of requiring 10,000-square-foot lots, allow 5,000-square-foot lots and allow cluster housing.

The community has to rally to allow for that change. In our 7000 Hawaii Kai Drive project we could have built another 100 units, but we didn’t because there was a density cap and a height cap to protect the views of people on the ridge.

Finally, we need more land zoned for urban. O‘ahu is maybe 25% urban, but overall the state is 5%. We have quasi-urban recognized areas, like the gentleman farms, where there is no farming. Let’s not call them farms.

If you let those things happen we will have a building boom.

We need a different mindset to tackle these big problems. If a project is in an area where there are green fields that’s one thing, but why do you need an environmental impact statement in an area that is already urban? It is an in-fill project. We need that kind of thinking to get us out of this, otherwise we are just talking.

Q: Yes, but will developers build for a cross section of buyers?

Camp: People will say: They’re only going to build multimillion-dollar houses, but you can only finance so many multimillion-dollar homes, as the lenders are not going to let you build more homes than the market can absorb. We would build for those other markets.

Why would I develop $3 million homes for a small number of buyers? I would rather build for 65,000 people who are waiting for more affordable homes. But we have to build to that affordable price.

Q: External financing makes construction costly. Can the state help?

Camp: It is very complicated, and nobody wants to think about the math involved in a massive housing project. 

Financing is required because no one puts in the entire amount. Investors usually come in with the down payment or equity. The down payment carries a return requirement, which is very expensive.

People say: But interest rates are low, 3% to 5%. Yes, but the risk that investors take usually requires a return of 15% to 20% over the duration of the project. So assume it takes three years to complete a project at a rate of 10%, then you have to provide a 30% return. That’s where the government can help – not to give money but to provide financing, like bonds, that can be used as equity. Essentially the risk money.

Q: Why do you think the state government hasn’t taken this measure already?

Camp: Who’s going to pay off the bond? It requires an active Legislature. You actually have to go through the political process to have the bonds available. They’re doing a variation of that financing now, but only for rental housing.

I always say when you do only rental housing, you are warehousing people because they don’t have a way to move up. What you want is a cross section of housing so that you can do rentals for those who truly need it.

But you want people to be able to buy homes because wealth is created by owning your home. To me, that is the American dream, and I think it is still achievable in Hawai‘i.

Q: You need a return on investment but also want to do good for the community. How do you balance those when selecting your projects?

Camp: First, we look at doing a project that can transform the community. We look for unfilled gaps.

In Hawai‘i Kai, it was rental housing providing multigenerational housing within a condo setting. That product was not available in that community. We created homes on a property that sat fallow for some 30 years.

With the Sky project, we are also looking to fill the gaps. Many consider Kaka‘ako to be either for the $1 million to $2 million purchasers or for the affordable housing buyers. But what about everybody else? We are going to provide a great product that those in between can afford.

We were only required to do 44 units and are now doing a total of 84. Everybody was talking about a 30-year buy back,* but nobody else was willing to take the risk. So in a sense, we will be the test case.

The second thing is we make sure our investors’ return is going to be adequate for the project’s risk. But it’s also about taking care of our employees who brought a project to fruition.

This interview has been edited for clarity and conciseness.